21 comments

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  Chris

  2 years ago

  Nice post DJ,
  
  I can't tell you how discouraging this has been. I guess we have to learn how to adapt to new forms of communications (public blogs). I know Driscoll and others seem to hate the blog world and the criticisms that flow.
  
  Speakers can no longer say things at church, in a conference or any other public venue without the possibility of the info becoming "viral" and spreading across the nations.
  
  Think about, I knew about Piper criticisms of Driscoll, before Driscoll knew, and I was not even at the conference. NUTS!
  
  But, this is the new reality and those who have platforms, are now speaking to the entire blog world, and it does not matter if they like it or now.
  
  On another note, I've kind of personally floated away from the Emergent Village crowd. Not really in a bad way...But, the problem I'm having is the flip side: which is the reformed crowd. (which I love and respect) So far, I have not been able to find a "middle ground" crowd, sorta speak. Very frustrating!
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  Tim Keller

  2 years ago

  DJ - Yes, it is wearisome. However, I wasn't trying to pick a fight or criticize emergent in my comments at DG. I was making the point that the older Stott-Packer-Francis Schaeffer evangelicalism is fragmenting. Stott's 'evangelical essentials' are not seen by the emergent as essentials. That's noteworthy and worthy of reflection, I think, since Stott and others carved out the space between fundamentalism and liberalism a half-century ago. Emergent (IMO) is moving out of that older space, and trying to create a new space between older liberalism and older evangelicalism. My guess is that they are basically coming to the same place as the post-liberals. But I wonder if they can really make a movement out of it without doing the institution building that Stott, Ockenga, Billy Graham etc did. I doubt it, though I am not totally sure of my doubt (!) since you don't get back into Narnia the same way you did last time.
  
  I don't think these kinds of comments should be considered cheap shots nor the kind of charges that should be made personally before they are made publicly, etc. If you can't say measured things like this in a public forum, I'm not sure what you can say.
  
  By the way, DJ--I'm sorry I never post on your website. I hope this makes amends!
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  the bloke

  2 years ago

  "I disagree with you!"
  
  I wonder what that means to the speaker. To the hearer, it seems like it is a critique, but then the reply might be, "Well, so?" or even, "Whew! I was afraid you'd not!" or "Thank God!"
  
  Perhaps when someone makes such utterances, it is a declaration not so much about the wrongness of the other party's position but more so about the speaker's difference in perspective or even, the speaker's emotional response to whatever he or she disagrees with.
  
  Of course, in matters of faith, we have the issues about claims on truth. It seems for some of us that is very important and then we find in reality that we run across many different interpretations and perspectives which then troubles some of us.
  
  Consider that when Christ Himself says, "I am the Truth," it is a statement that possibly means something very different than what most people take it to mean.
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  jawapez

  2 years ago

  Hi DJ,
  While there's some truth in your complaint (especially in regards to the criticisms of Driscoll), disagreement is fundamental to discussion. We all have beliefs and opinions about things, but one of the central ways we learn and grow closer to the Truth is through discussing our disagreements and weighing them appropriately. I appreciate Dr. Keller's point as well, "If you can’t say measured things like this in a public forum, I’m not sure what you can say."
  
  I appreciate you reading and linking to the A-Team blog, but I don't appreciate the way you took my quote out of context. Someone wondered whether or not I agreed with the things taught at the conference, so I made a brief statement responding to that- is that a crime? Beyond that, the comment you're quoting me from isn't at all about things I disagreed with at the conference.
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  Sivin

  2 years ago

  nice of Tim Keller to post a comment. :-) I'm wondering whether "trying to create a new space between older liberalism and older evangelicalism" necessarily means that one is disconnecting themselves from "evangelicalism"? (cf. Evangelicals like Stott carving space within mainline church contexts such as the Anglican Communion)
  
  Perhaps the Asian American Church younger leaders may model a way forward in terms of working out disagreements?
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  Tim Keller

  2 years ago

  Sivin--I don't care whether Emergent calls itself 'evangelicalism' or not. Stott and others believed that the separatism of fundamentalism and the theologically innovations of liberalism drained Christianity of its vitality and power. They came up with a 'space' to inhabit that they believed was sufficiently 'in' the world and still sufficiently 'not of' the world. Stott had a set of evangelical essentials, including inerrancy and substitutionary atonement, that he felt was crucial for the church maintain in order to stay in that space. IMO history has confirmed their analysis, since both fundamentalism and mainline liberalism have faired poorly in comparison. Now emergent wants to find some new space--in a theological place that Stott would not go--that they think will be a better place for spiritual and ecclesiastical vitality. Whether they call it evangelicalism or not doesn't matter. Even though I see a lot of understandable reasons for their move, I don't think it's a wise one, either theologically or practically.
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  djchuang

  2 years ago

  I try to keep my posts under 1000 words, so they are not deeply nuanced treatises, and sometimes brevity does leave out needed disclaimers, caveats, measured explanations, etc. So, hopefully, comments (and minor revisions) will provide needed explanations for the various perspectives of readers. Can you imagine how wordy everything would be if we had to cover our bases for every kind of listener/ reader?
  
  Roger, no harm intended by pulling a few of your words out of context. I've revised my post and added a caveat - I hope that helps. In my discussions with everyday people, I have not found that when someone says they disagree, that it has resulted in a changed perspective in the person being disagreed with. YMMV- your mileage may vary.
  
  Tim, thanks for your comments and public remarks. I thought they were well-measured and acceptable in the very limited time and format you had to work with. I share a similar perspective on what kind of impact Emergent might have. I believe, if my recollection is correct, that even Doug Pagitt has said that Emergent might only amount to an asterisk in the history books. So, even if Emergent is creating a new space that might meetup with post-liberals, it may well risk losing evangelicalism's vitality, and yet it may also find something valuable and useful along the way. I find myself on the margins of the Emergent conversation myself, but I do sense that some Emergents don't care to receive theological cautionary remarks outside of their own venues and relationships. As such, I don't think it's fair that if I were asked about Emergent's future that I'd have to answer with "Oh, I don't know, you'd have to ask them yourself." (btw, I was able to get to Redeemer's 10:30am service on Sunday 10/1, sat down just as you started the sermon; I had dropped my wife earlier so she would have time to settle down while I circled to find parking; this impeccable timing caused my wife to roll her eyes back in disbelief *grin*)
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  Tim Keller

  2 years ago

  Parking? In Manhattan? That won't happen till the kingdom comes in its fullness.
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  Sivin

  2 years ago

  Thanks Tim for response to my question. I thought it's really great you are taking time to respond in the comments sections. How would you see the place of the Charismatic and Pentecostal movement in this whole discussion especially in terms of "for spiritual and ecclesiastical vitality" and also "evangelical essentials ... crucial for the church maintain in order to stay in that space"? I recognize this is a broad question but I'm interested in your views on this.
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  Tim Keller

  2 years ago

  Sivin-- in general, the Pentecostal movement fits in the traditional evangelical 'space.' Its theology is conservative-evangelical. But it does have a tendency to 'list to the right,' away from the cultural/scholarly engagement that the original evangelical architects (Stott, Carl Henry, etc) wanted. I actually wonder (and I don't think there's any way to prove it) that the reason emergent is 'listing to the left' and seeking different space is because they see evangelicalism as drifting into a more hard-line, fortress-mentality attitude toward culture. If so, some parts of the Pentecostal movement may be responsible for this.
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  Ben

  2 years ago

  Congrats DJ on finally landing the Tim Keller comment(several!). I think I'm going to point Tony Jones to this conversation on his blog.
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  Rachelle

  2 years ago

  Re: (btw, I was able to get to Redeemer’s 10:30am service on Sunday 10/1, sat down just as you started the sermon; I had dropped my wife earlier so she would have time to settle down while I circled to find parking; this impeccable timing caused my wife to roll her eyes back in disbelief *grin*)
  
  [sorry to be off the main discussion, but I just have to confirm Dj's parenthetical statement. There is nothing like rushing full speed down dozens of blocks in the Bronx in order to get to Redeemer on time. I was experiencing a wonderful time of worship and Dj popped into his seat just as Tim was starting. Cutting it too close for me!
  
  P.S. I survived art graduate school in Philly by listening to Tim's sermons over and over, especially on the affirmation of the arts and a redemptive view of culture - Rachelle, Dj's wife)
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  Tony Jones

  2 years ago

  I find Tim's comments here to be more nuanced and understandable than what I have heard on the recording. That is, indeed, understandable, given the contraints of of the time and venue at the DG Conference. It's true that I don't feel contrained by the particular doctrines that Schaeffer thought essential for forging a third way between liberalism and fundamentalism. His thoughts were important and progressive for his day, and we are called to think just as robustly for our day. And, while I do have some affinity for post-liberals, I also part ways with them at significant points. Plus, I've been just as influenced by my training at Fuller and my reading of (evangelical) biblical greats like FF Bruce. So, I may be drifting, and I may not.
  
  Regarding my openness to correction, I guess I'm no the one to judge that, although I have sat under some wonderful teachers in my life, and I've been shaped by each of them. I will say that I have a policy that I'll meet anyone I can at anytime I can to answer questions and address concerns they have about my own theology, or about Emergent Village (the broader emergent church movement, however, I am unable to answer for). That's exactly why I invited the presenters at the DG Conference for coffee while they were in town. So, DJ, please don't assume that I'm unwilling or unable to receive cautionary remarks. I welcome them, for they make my thinking sharper. On my blog, I was just asking why Tim was suggesting that we/I are sliding away from orthodoxy. I've now had that question answered. My next question is, what, in particular, is leading Tim to that conclusion?
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  Tony Jones

  2 years ago

  Sorry, one more point I'd like to make abundantly clear: I have a great deal of respect for Tim, and I actually desire to develop a friendship. I'm not out to make enemies. I'm out to make friends.
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  jawapez

  2 years ago

  Thanks for the caveat DJ.
  You've never disagreed with someone about something and changed your mind after hearing their view, or vice versa? I wonder, are you more dissatisfied with the fact that people are disagreeing over things, or with the tone in which they're disagreeing. I think disagreement is healthy and vital for our understandings to mature, but I'm often dissappointed with the tone in which people disagree. (And that often includes myself.)
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  Scot McKnight

  2 years ago

  Tim,
  I'm glad you bring up both Schaeffer and Stott, for I think the former paved the way for the Religious Right with his two late books -- How Then Shall We Live and Christian Manifesto. Stott set the agenda for many of us in the American scene. He was, in my estimation, a proponent of generous orthodoxy. What do you think of such an idea?
  
  On Stott, it might be fair to say he believed in inerrancy, but you know full well that he had problems with that term -- he preferred to call Scripture (as do I) truthful and trustworthy rather than inerrancy. It seems to me to be a capturing of Stott to push that term for what he said. Clearly, in Evangelical Essentials, he does not disagree with the inerrantists but he makes it clear that he thinks that is not the best term for a theology of Scripture. At one time on Tony's blog, you and I had a similar conversation.
  
  Now, to be fair to Stott, he pushed the boundaries for evangelicalism, and the right side of evangelicalism in the USA thought he was soft on eschatology, on final state, and on social justice/evangelism.
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  djchuang

  2 years ago

  Tony, thanks for stopping by, commenting, and engaging dialogue here and there and everywhere. I'm glad you're making progress on getting your questions answered, and I'm (naively?) hopeful you'll get to meet Keller in person too. I believe I couched my impression (not assumption) about some Emergent conversationalists fairly, "that some Emergents don’t care to receive theological cautionary remarks". Thanks for confirming, again, that this does not apply to you. And, I commend you on pursuing friendships and dialogue on these heavily-nuanced theological matters, it is not an easy effort!
  
  Roger, I dislike the tone of disagreement much more than the disagreements themselves. I do recognize that people have differences and disagreements, and they should, and it is healthy to have those. I just don't think people have to lead with saying "I disagree with that" or "I don't agree with everything they say". I sense that the term "disagree" itself is getting too emotionally charged, though not as badly as terms like "cult" or "heretic". So, on rare occasions I do change my mind on matters (I'm better on collecting observations than forming opinions anyways), but probably not because they started by saying "I disagree." :)
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  Ben

  2 years ago

  I agree that theological disagreements should be talked about and aired out appropriately and are thus essential and healthy. I would also suggest that as pastors and church leaders, our job is to think about our theology and discuss it, but more importantly to live out the IMPLICATIONS of our theology in our communities. I think this is more important, especially in view of the non-Christians who are watching us from the outside.
  
  For instance, if you espouse the complementarian view of gender roles, isn't it more convincing to those who disagree with you for them to see you as a husband and father who shows sacrificial love to your wife and family, and exercising "headship" through that? I think that would be more telling than an extended debate over Ephesians 5. I think that's more productive sometimes then spending so much time debating theology, though of course that's essential because that's where it all begins.
  
  That's one reason I respect Tim Keller, because I get the feeling that he is more concerned about living out the implications of his theology, rather than in just condemning "heresy."
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  Tony Jones

  2 years ago

  Stott also happens to be an annihilationist, which I think Keller/Piper/Driscoll/Wells/Carson would disagree with. So, maybe Stott is "sliding away" from Stottian evangelicalism.
  
  I'm not trying to be a smartass, just to point out that "evangelical" is a very slippery term, and it bends in a lot of different directions, making it troublesome to determine someone else's relationship to the term.
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  Laurence O.

  2 years ago

  The thing is, dialogue takes a lot of time and effort, and being the busy Americans that we are, it seems we don’t have much time for it.

  
  
  Another thing is that perhaps the Internet puts elders and other church leaders in a position that they have never been in before: the position of (a) trying to dialog with the whole world (b) at light speed. The unrealistic scope and the speed of 21st century electronic theological dialog among church leaders can have a serious tendency to foster out of context critiques, immature and arrogant dialog, and shallow, faceless relationships and communities. In a word, no one man (save our Lord Jesus) is right about everything, and it would do well for us wanna-be "uber pastors" to stop trying to please the whole faceless blogosphere. Instead, we ought to spend more effort in remainging faithful to the communities in which God has placed us to be faithful bondservant-steward-shepherds.
  
  Furthermore, some conversations (perhaps much of what passes for normal blog posts) ought to be private communications between the interested parties. Why multiply griefs unnecessarily by publishing them for the entire world (again, the scope issue)? Seems to me like this is pandering to immaturity.
  
  (So, the obvious irony is that I am posting these thoughts on a blog, and I run two or three of my own. What do you elder elders think? Have blogs and the like benefited your ministry more than they have brought strife?)
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  jeremy

  2 years ago

  "I actually wonder (and I don’t think there’s any way to prove it) that the reason emergent is ‘listing to the left’ and seeking different space is because they see evangelicalism as drifting into a more hard-line, fortress-mentality attitude toward culture. If so, some parts of the Pentecostal movement may be responsible for this."

  
  
  Having grown up in a pentecostal/charismatice tradition, I've seen the hardline, fortress mentality Pastor Tim references. But increasingly I've also seen a passion to "forget the former things" and experience the "new thing" God is doing beyond the walls of our churches today. In recent years, this has taken many forms including an emphasis from p/c leaders on "marketplace ministry," "city transofrmation," and even "cultural engagement."
  
  I've only recently become familiar with the emerging church conversation, but much of its rhetoric and passion resonate with where I find many emerging leaders within the urban p/c context. (Some of it is also disconcerting, like the tendency towards white, suburban, seminarian, "ortho-praxis" jargon.)
  
  I wonder if the solution to DJ's lament, and my own, will come when the p/c "camp" (including so-called "post-charismatics") -- who tend to emphasize heart and experience and emotional expressions of faith -- discovers its kinship with the cerebral emerging church types -- who tend to value rigorous analysis and intellectual engagement. When we embrace our common passion for more of God and manifest expressions of His transformative power in our respective cultural contexts, then we might actual find ourselves answering the prayer of Jesus:
  
  "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me." (John 17:20-23)
  
  When the "heart" and the "head" unite, the collective body of Christ might actually function the way our heavenly Father designed us to function.
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